Unique game design approach

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Posts: 465

Saw this a while ago, thought you guys might find it interesting.

Dustin Browder wrote:
Our creative process on StarCraft II was very different than the creative process I've used on other RTS games I've worked on or even on WarCraft III. We didn't set out with any goals in mind, and I'm sure that this will upset the fans terribly. What we did instead was that we said, "We want to make a bunch of cool units, and we're going to make each unit as cool as we can possibly make it, and then we'll see how it all works together, and we'll tune as necessary from there." So it was never our intention specifically to do anything exactly with the races. Our goal was to make the units as interesting as possible and as different from one another as we possibly could. From there we could see how the races changed and evolved. That's definitely how it has worked out. -Dustin Browder (Starcraft 2 Design Director)

http://gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2010/04/08/an-extensive-inter...

Posts: 458

why not, if its only about content.

Posts: 1691

I think that is a fine approach for a sequel, but not so much as trying to design an original game. After all, isn't the main idea behind SC2 to make a sexed-up version of SC, not make a new game completely? So a lot of the technical gameplay ground-work is already done for them.

Posts: 458

as i said, its a content only approach.

Posts: 465

Well I was looking for as many opinions as possible, I don't think Spodi meant to rephrase your comment.

My opinion is that after playing a lot of HoN, I think that sequels should be extra careful when making new content. I think that HoN went about this perfectly, it is almost a direct clone of DoTA but better. And I think most people wanted SC2 to be this way. At the moment there are a lot of units I miss such as the reaver, but also a lot of the mechanics as well such as attack micro and stacking, which could turn the game around and is amazing to watch. Most of the units now have to stop for ages before they shoot, which removes micro completely.

A lot of the shortcuts are also missing such as F-Keys and Alt+ControlGroup switch. Double-tapping to view over a unit is 4 times slower than using the other methods mentioned. When you are flicking between screens all the time, you have no idea how frustrating this is. Luckily they have backspace which switches your view to base, however this means that I have to control group on the right hand side in order to flick between. As the attack hotkey is on the left side of the keyboard, its pretty damn annoying to have to go 8a9a0a.

Even worse is that the control groups appear on the interface. When your mouse is clicking at a hundred miles an hour, more often than not you will click this and re-allocate your control group. Suddenly you find switching to view your army actually views your command center and you end up losing the game in half a second.

HoN went about this completely differently. They actually improved the hotkey layout and added new ones, while keeping the interface and game mechanics the same making the game a far more enjoyable experience. Even most of the heroes are exactly the same, but with different names. HoN is basically DoTA but with carefully calculated interface/gameplay improvements and much more polished. I kinda wish SC2 was the same.

Posts: 465

I kinda went offtopic at the end (that's because I was tired and forgot what I wanted to say), this new article that just came out explains what I have always been trying to say perfectly. (Also goes on to talk about mechanics balancing the game, rather than individual nerfs/buffs).

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121769

TL.net wrote:

name wrote:
Blizzard design philosophy pre Dustin Browder-era “Let’s design a great engine and worry about units, graphics and art later. Hell, let’s even throw a game in the trash bin and recode it from scratch if people think it sucks.”

name wrote:
Blizzard design philosophy post Dustin Browder “Hey guys let’s design awesome, cool and unique units and worry about the game and balance afterwards. We can always fix that. Sure people will think the game has flaws, but balance and time will sort that out”

One of the main problems with the Dustin Browder school of design philosophy, is that they won’t realize they’ve screwed up until it’s too late. And they’ve had ample warning:

Chill 2008 BWWI wrote:
So all in all, units do what you want, except for a few. Mutalisks stack, yes, but it really isn’t comparable to the original. They overlap if you spam but usually spread out pretty easily. Mutalisk micro is very hard to do. Mutalisks are still good, and I spent quite a lot of time with them, but I really couldn’t get the hang of harassing too well with them. I tried patrol, hold, and attack, and nothing made them emulate their Brood War counterparts. That’s not to say Mutalisk micro can’t be done and won’t be solved eventually. I’m just saying in this build, I personally couldn’t get it to happen.

Starcraft II Q&A – Batch 31 wrote:
In StarCraft, some units had instant attack animations (Corsiar, Mutalisk, Vulture). This allowed people with good micro to make these units move and shoot. In contrast there were units that had an attack animation which required the unit to stop and shoot. This allowed people with good micro to dance (move, shoot, move shoot, maximizing the distance travelled without the unit losing any shooting time). In Warcraft III, units tended to have attack animations which took as long as the cooldown for the attack, making micro actions such as these non-existent. Will units in StarCraft II have attack animations that last as long as the cooldown for their attack, similar to Warcraft III? or will players be able to dance (moving in between shooting) like in StarCraft? Also, will there be any units with instant attack animations that can be micromanaged to move and shoot like in StarCraft?

Blizzard wrote:
Balance will be the first priority when determining the animation duration for units. With that said, there will be certain units that players will be able to dance with (EN: lies), and there will be other units which will force the unit to stop and fire. Some units in StarCraft II will not only need to stop and fire, but will do additional damage to a target while it focuses. All of these characteristics which determine how a unit will be used in competitive play will be chosen based on balance.

Posts: 458

wel when I design a game,
I have a specific gameplay I aim for.

I go for a specific game play and feeling the game should have.
So yeah, mechanics first for me.

Posts: 465

Well if you look at that last quote, I love how everything has to be compromised because of balance. So basically the design decision was awesome units, then balance (what about gameplay???). I always considered gameplay first then graphics. Although I don't know how much hype it would have in comparison, although I would say the gameplay of Starcraft 1 was a major factor, because it didn't really have cutting edge graphics in comparison to other games.

But I could not care less about balance, I want my mechanics back lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgWx4gUIUDg#t=10m14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jeBlCAjtFU#t=15m52

Posts: 458

well if balance means severely massacrating the game mechanics, something went wrong! XD

And there the question is if it was really just very flawful game mechanics (warrock is a good example, so many glitches!)
or if the devs went overboard on balance.

I mean I never played Starcraft 1, but was that "dancing" mechanic imbalanced in the pro scene?

I mean Blizzard knew:
-who wanted the game
-for what they wanted the game
-what they expected from the game

Posts: 465

The "dancing" mechanic was what made the game balanced. For example in the first link posted above, if both teams simply attack-moved into each other (with those units) the zerg would rape... really unbelievably hard. Not going to go into the details. Although if this mechanic didn't exist, this build probably wouldn't either.

I doubt blizzard had this sort of micro in mind during SC1 nor SC2. It was probably more out of the fact that SC1 didn't have the resources to create smooth animations, so gave them arcade-style staccato'd ones.

Also imbalanced or not, this is what gave SC1 its edge over other RTS's and what made it so popular. When BoxeR came in and destroyed everyone using micro to overcome seemingly impossible odds (or in just spectacular fashion), that's when the scene got huge in Korea.

I'm am also of the stance that catering to the pro-scene will bring in the masses, rather than the other way around. Pros bring in media attention, money, and influences people to play the game more. However I'm not going to go into this either.

Posts: 19

I actually kinda of like this process. Its kinda of interesting to come up with something, and watching your concept evolve over time. And since I got into the beta just a few days ago. I have to say it has worked out very well for them so far.

My name in beta is Vornak.tris if anyone wants to do some 2Vs2's in the future. Smile

"Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today—but the core of science fiction, its essence ... has become crucial to our salvation if we are to be saved at all. "
-Isaac Asimov

Posts: 263

Quick, someone give me a beta key! :V

Posts: 19

If you pre order it at game stop, they print you a beta key on the receipt. Thats what I did. Wink

"Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today—but the core of science fiction, its essence ... has become crucial to our salvation if we are to be saved at all. "
-Isaac Asimov

Posts: 465

Ahhh wait gamestop is for US only, its different for different countries!

Not sure if its out in the UK yet or where to get it from for UK, go check teamliquid.

AU just came out on the 28th at EB and GAME, I didn't get one because EB is always overpriced and there is only a limited number of keys. If people are still getting them, I might consider buying.

I've just been playing vs AI and creating build orders and practising macro/multitasking.

EDIT: Ill be going to a friends house to play beta on saturday, i might see you online tris. Although I might be too busy refining my builds against real players (instead of AI) lol.

Posts: 465

Well I got mine through pre-order at EB.

Went 4-1 on placement matches, with my loss being the first game then straight wins after that. I have the flu atm so I've been all over the place on the ladder tho, going from 9th to 38th now 18th in Gold. I probably should have done my placements later on, right now i keep on having to cancel buildings every time I start coughing, otherwise I might have had a real chance at Platinum, oh well I guess ill work my way up. Tongue

Right now I still like SC1 a lot more, maybe that will change later on, though I'm not sure.

ID is SluggaSlamoo.aus

Posts: 465

And now I'm equal 1st lol Laughing out loud

Posts: 19

Nice. You sound like a better player then me. I'm like 30 or something in gold. So far 3 losses 2 wins for 1v1. I'm going to bring my computer over to my brothers this weekend. Going to get a lot of play time in. Smile

"Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today—but the core of science fiction, its essence ... has become crucial to our salvation if we are to be saved at all. "
-Isaac Asimov