NetGore

That's kind of what happened with SVO. I started with it, and spent way too much time on it. To quit now seems like a complete waste of time, hence why SVO has been around for four years >_>

I'm not too familiar with the "engine scene" to know if a lot of engine designers make games with their own engine but like you said, there will always be some games running on Netgore which can catch bugs and see where stuff can be improved.

As for the engine popularity, I don't get how vbGORE got so many new members, truth be told, they weren't really sticking around much but still. I haven't seen many new members around here. Where did you advertise Netgore on the internet?

I guess I shouldn't have said my problem would be time as much as its spending a lot of time while not really improving on what I want to do for a living. NetGore hasn't really been teaching much of anything new for at least the last half year just since I don't go into any new topics with it.

I've posted on a few forums, but that is about it. vbGORE had a big help due to the wiki skin I made (that got thousands of back-links to vbGORE) and because of all the Mirage and Eclipse users.

Its really easy to give up after you look at the whole picture, with the experience of having spent hours and realising how much effort such a task really is.

You might wanna try agile development. Instead of looking at the whole picture just expand the scope as you go a long, if you don't have much time, fine, make the scope smaller to fit that time. Consider the project as just getting through a backlog of bite size pieces (write a bunch of cards for your backlog and move them along each stage) each sprint (very prioritization heavy, more often than not you won't get through the entire backlog, which is good and teaches you how much you can really handle in a sprint). You don't have an end goal, but instead deliver something each sprint and have something releasable by that sprint.

<< This will mean that there won't really be an ALPHA, BETA, CHARLIE, ETC. There are no stages because you don't know how your game will end up, you just have lots of releases and a constantly finished game per se. You will have a development build, loadtest build, and release build. You will always be in release, and it will always be updated very frequently.

Ironically its very much like your traditional style of "DONE, NEXT!". Only much more controlled. Instead of writing the spec, doing your object model, and then writing the code like waterfall. Just write code and optimise it later. The important thing is that you always do what is at the top of the prioritised list, NO EXCEPTIONS! Yes that may mean low priority items may never get done, but who cares, its low priority. You can increase the priority in the next sprint if you must. Often this means engineering tasks get pushed to the bottom. The best thing to do is dedicate one day of each sprint to the a separate engineering backlog which prioritises removing tech debt rather than business value. Most importantly though you have to be doing stuff that actually improves the value of the project for users rather than other programmers.

You may think that this will cause tonnes of bugs. Amazingly enough, agile development when done right results in record low error rates (because of TDD and CI).

I was lucky to work in an environment where we were at the forefront of software project management, and always trying new processes to increase productivity (extremely diligently too). I found I was really productive (like REALLY productive) using scrum and extreme programming.

There's a lot more to it than this, like having continuous integration builds (you might wanna look at hudson) and what not but theres a lot more to learn if your interested.

Well I think what is happening is you're trying to go for something large because you have a great idea and know you have the capabilities to create the game of your dreams, in reality though the stress involved, the time of course and the resources required not only for the game but the person(s) making the game too.

I've always tried my luck with big projects, designed 5 different huge games but they barely got past the actual main menu in development because I wasn't ready to handle such a large project nor did I know what happens with having a big game, all the legal things you have to deal with, protecting it from getting stolen, technical support and all sorts of extra stuff that doesn't really have anything to do with the game but is what supports it all.

Spodi, you've got a lot of talent and you've done some great things already, so there's no need to prove to yourself what you can do since you already know you can. But along side from that I think small offline projects would be the least stressful option and get you more games out that sell cheap but gain you a good profit and is worth more than the time you spent making small games. Then when you've earned enough from the games you're selling you can say well I want to build a team and go full time with this next project that isn't huge but a pretty decent sized game, still offline though since providing servers and technical support and hiring GMs costs a lot so wait until you're making millions and can afford to support an online game.

What I'm doing is creating games for the app store on apple devices, that way a lot more people can find the game, then advertise the game everywhere to get people to notice it and try it out, if they like what they see from previews they can buy it. So while imm working on my next small project I can make some extra money from that game and then once the next small project comes out i can possibly double what i'll be earning so I can put more time into making the games and less time having to worry about how I'm going to pay my bills. Now I estimate maybe making a few thousand from sales based off how angry birds sold. But that's for a small game with a few characters and 8 side scrolling levels using the same buildings and backgrounds just having different obstacles and monsters. So once the first project is done it'll be easier to create the next one since the programming is already done just needs a few changes here and there and just different graphics.

So maybe just a sidescroller or a quick match game of some sort, he'll you could do like a street figter looking 2D game that's real simple and people would enjoy playing that. Also find a good place to market your product.

I wanted to make a MMORPG. Then I realized how much time it takes. Then I asked myself, do I want to do this?

My answer: I want to make a fun game. I want to do something that is fun. So, why do I feel this way about a MMORPG? Because it's too big... I making a game for the Windows Phone 7 right now. It's not huge and bloated with content, but it's FUN, to MAKE and to PLAY. You don't have to make a MMORPG to make a game. Seriously, I don't even like MMORPGs any more.

Also, I agree with bake, agile development is the way to go. I started my Phone 7 game with agile development.
1st sprint/iteration (whatever you want to call it): Get something on the screen
2nd sprint : Add some game logic, whatever.

The main thing in agile development or scrum or whatever methodology you want to use is that development is an iterative process. You add on to the game as you go. There might be some initial framework coding and some pre waterfall schemes to get the basic game going, but the majority of the time is spent in not having a complete plan. It's spent in adding a feature, test to see if it's fun, and expand upon it if your users (or you) think it's worth while. Agile development not only helps you get stuff done, it helps you make games that are truly fun.

Spodi, my advice is too simply walk away. Yeah sure, come and fix some bugs, but stop the heavy development. Really ask yourself if you want a MMORPG and how much you want it. Look at what you want/need and figure out the quickest route to get there.

If you want something for a portfolio, start smaller. Make a game for one of the mobile platforms (I highly recommend this). The reason I recommend mobile platforms is because number 1, there pretty big. Also, there is an app market so you don't have to worry as much to get your stuff out there. (it's easier, not necessarily better than running a website or something) Also, these mobile platforms have better security than the pc (the user is restricted a lot, it's almost like a console). Not too say it's impossible to hack your game, but you just have to worry less and spend less TIME on it.

If you just want a game, make the kind of game you like, and find like minded people.

If you want a MMORPG, make sure you ask yourself why and if it's worth it. You might want to consider joining a team that has experienced people that aren't going to flip out on you. (not saying these kind of people are easy to find)

In a nutshell: A MMORPG was too big to start off on anyway. Cut your losses and get something done. Look at what you need or want it go get it as fast as you can. You need something to boost your portfolio for the game industry, make an app for one of the mobile platforms. Do something, stop making frameworks and get something done.

I don't mean to be harsh, but this is what I've come to realize. Also, if your looking into agile development, you might want to consider getting acquainted with some major frameworks. (like Hibernate or some DI frameworks) Another thing is that on these mobile platforms, you can put ads into your games. (usually pretty easily, especially on Windows Phone 7) I don't mean to push you or anything, but consider looking into Windows Phone 7 and XNA. You already know them, there not too hard to get going (it's just C# and XNA, what you've been doing for a good part of this project). I think you could bust out a game for your portfolio for the Windows Phone 7 within a month or two easy.

Odds are you won't make millions, hence you probably won't own a huge MMORPG. From what I understand, your trying to get projects for your portfolio, for when you apply for a job in the game industry. Yeah sure, a MMORPG is impressive, but a bunch of smaller projects that show mastery is just as good. I don't know how much time you have, but the main thing is to get stuff done. Sure it's fun, but it isn't fun when you work on something for a year and have nothing to show (or at least not as much as you hoped for).

My suggestion spend more time improving netgore and let others create games and then you can enjoy what was created using your software.

I think you're missing the point Taziz.. Read what he's trying to say.

I think Skye hit the nail on the head. Trying to make a whole and complete game alpha, beta, Release is a massive project, too much for one person alone. Pick a level, do that. take a break. do it piecemeal, be always in release, but never completed. As far as i have seen, if you don't have a big team, its better to get something useable, and release that, then improve it. the "Standard development model" only works in a buisness type setting or with large teams devoting massive ammounts of time. My Eclipse Game is in shambles, but thats okay, because with each update it gets a little better. its not what i want but its small steps i can take, without being overwhelmed by how big a project it is.

Hopefully i will be starting the netgore build next week. If all goes well. I like the things i have seen so far, and the code is more more streamlined.

The "Standard development model" your talking about it waterfall methodology. Bake was talking about agile development which is a more iterative process. The cool thing about agile development when it comes to games is that you try to implement a feature later. Once the infant parts are in, people mess with it and you get some feedback. If the feature is well liked, maybe you'll improve and expand upon it. You might end up with a game that you never envisioned (to a point that is, you're not gonna start making a 2D rpg and end up with a 3D FPS).

All in all, decide what you want/need to do. Need something for a portfolio, bite something smaller so you have stuff to show. Want a mmorpg, than make one, but take it slow. It's real easy to get burned out. Want a game, does it have to be a MMORPG? Get your priorities straight and do what you want.

@Taziz: What? **confusion**

I Supposed i should have said "That Bake mentioned Not to do." Im a fan of agile development for one man productions it gives you more bang for your buck, each thing you do has a faster reward when your small edits are implemented more often.

Spodi, thought about getting a team together for a game? Working on a project by yourself, and as part of a team, are completely different things, if you haven't given it much of a go, might be a good idea

*cough* Or join svo *cough*

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. While a game would be nice on a resume, that wasn't really the reason for creating a game - that was more of what the engine was for. I have never really been too huge into creating games. Like probably everyone else here, I do have ideas that I think would be fun to try, but I'm not that into them. Games are just a convenient kind of project to work on for learning to program.

I have thought about working with others, but even still that is too much for me. Even with a skilled, hard-working team it would take a few months. But like I said, I can always pitch in on existing projects that show promise. That way I can help out as much or as little as I like.

I know, and my aims really weren't that high to begin with. In reality, I probably could write majority of the code needed for the game along with a mediocre foundation for the content within a month if I put all my time and energy into it. But that would be spending a month on something I didn't care too much about. A ton of time would then be required to work on the actual content (graphics, maps, sounds, items, NPCs, etc), most of which I wouldn't have much interest in working on and won't teach me much of anything useful.

Reason I have been working with multiplayer games is because I enjoy working with scalable systems, concurrency, networking, and all that jazz.

So it seems like you're burned out and you don't really have a huge interest in making a game/MMORPG.

When I said game, I didn't mean an RPG (which I think is what you considered). Yeah, making a game isn't a walk in the park, but neither is anything else. If you want to make an application that does something, it'll take a while. Yeah, you can make a translator in a short amount of time, but anything that is expansive and well... cool, if that makes any sense, takes time.

Maybe consider working on some open source projects or something. Also consider trying stuff that might be "cool". Like a procedurally generated game or something. Do something that interests you. If you like working with all that jazz, than expand upon it. Consider making a network framework in .NET solely for games/MMORPGs or something. Whatever it is you're interested in coding, take it to the next level.

Or just take a break.

My next project is definitely going to be in C++ since I feel I need to be more comfortable in that language more than any other language. Still not sure what I will work on, but I'll probably do a small game eventually - nothing I am going to care about finishing.

Good idea. Do something to help you and it isn't a huge commitment. Learning is always a good path. I wonder if anyone else would be willing to work on the netgore engine.

C++ 3d MMORPG engine!

I joke, I joke, about time you do something different for a change ^^

i dont plan on stopping, i'll probably do more and more as the time progresses i'm just studying like mad etc atm