NetGore

Mostly WRPGs and MMORPGS do that. With games like fire emblem and other tactical JRPGs or older RPGS there is less focus on leveling and more on story and partying, grinding was never supposed to be in RPGs but now they think it is not an RPG without "leveling". You still leveled your characters but it was never the main focus of the game, it kind of just happened without you knowing.

Its just a paradigm, if you ignore leveling it opens a whole new world of possibilities.

well levels are simple.

we will use em because they are simple to overlook.
But level requirements on items to equip them is really lame.

of course, if you want to go for awesomeness:
attacking X times increases your strength; casting spells for a total of X mana increase your wisdom.

its awesome to be high "level" and still notice that your stats increase in a visible time.

=> many characters will balane out their weak stats in late game, because its faster than increasing their stat of 120 strength for example

HOWEVER:
you need some way to show other players how strong this guy is (partying, guilds, pvp etc).
Maybe add a value based on his highest stat.
So basically your highest stat value (Intelligence on a mage for example) replaces your "level"

Simple don't use levels use proficiencies, it still kinda is levels but in a whole different way. Use a sword you get better at using swords and each time you level up using swords when you are wielding a sword you get X stat boost. The amount of exp you get for said proficiency should depend on your level and the enemys level that you are fighting (so you can't kil level 1 mobs at level 90 proficiency and still get levels or kill level 80 enemies at level 1 and get 20 proficiency levels) enemy levels would be much harder to balance but its a good system.

I agree with Ariler, in vbGORE I made a (very simple) system where you gain exp for the stat if you use your stats, and the stats could level. I didnt delete levels, I left the whole leveling system in the source, only you wouldn't get stat points if you gained a level. Then your level would just be to show how strong you are compared to other players.

Could use something like the system in diabolo, your level is based on how many stat points you have earned.

In WoW, The time between levels is time spend getting gear, which is where your primary stat boosts come from.

Diablo is actually the opposite - you get stats as you level. Its not "level is based on how many stat points you have earned" since doing the few quests that give you bonus permanent stat boosts don't affect your level at all.

Nex (not Nexus here, but Nex666 of vbGORE) was a big fan of the "skills improve as you use them" system, probably since he was such a fan of Ultima Online. I personally never really liked it, though. My only real experience with it was the 2-or-so weeks I played Faldon, so that doesn't really help, but it seems like it just influences people to get stuck in a certain style. For instance, if you use swords for a long time, switching to maces would require you essentially starting from scratch with your attacking. I'd rather keep using that sword for a while and jack up my mace skill until it is good enough for me to use it.

A combination of both systems may be fun, though. Using a skill, it slowly improves on its own as sort of a "bonus". I believe Fable did something like this. If you killed with magic, you'd get points you can spend on any stat, but also a little bonus that goes directly into the magic stat.

many games have a mix.

you gain levels, distribute stats, but have weapon proficiencies.
I also prefer the "skills/spells level by use" method, rather than skillpoints.

That's true and one of the drawbacks although you could set it up so you get a boost to make other proficiencies level faster if you have another weapon higher. Although then you'll have people that level all weapons to their max for no apparent reason.

Well, it kind of makes sense if you've never used a mace and you've been using a sword almost the entire time. I'm not a martial artist expert but maybe some of the experience should kind of transfer over. Although, it doesn't really make sense to train a mace skill with a sword... Maybe if we got a martial artist who specializes in weaponry we could come up with a system of overlapping skill experience. Some skills unlock others automatically or they allow certain proficiency in others. This would make sense to me since if you use a sword, wouldn't you be able to swing a mace pretty hard? Maybe not like a master, but definitely not like a newbie.

I'm a bit of a fan when it comes to Fable, but the system was pretty good for an RPG. Some people complain that is takes forever to max everything (if you fight random battles...), but that's not the point. The point was to use skill and carefully use your experience. (that's why I'm making more of a shooter game. Personal Skill > Levels)

In the real world having overlapping skills with various weapons is not possible. It took me nearly 2 years to become proficient with the bo, then another 2 with an oar, then another year with the spear. Granted they are all very similar, but the techniques that are effective for one are not utilized by the other. The same goes with swords...while one person is great at swinging a two-handed broad sword, they might cut their arm off trying to use dual swords at the same time. However, the only experience I have is in traditional Okinawan weaponry.

One idea might be to have weapon proficiencies with blunt weapons, single handed, double handed, etc. But having skills transfer over from one weapon to another , like a mace to a sword, wouldn't work if trying to achieve a "real-world" sense of skills.

I haven't really done martial arts or anything, but its common sense that if you are good at one thing you will get good at another thing in a related field much faster. Whenever I try and get good at anything I also try other stuff in related fields and usually that helps me get better at what I am trying to get better at while adding more depth and flexibility.

The closest example i can get to martial arts is this. Although tricking isn't really a part of parkour, sometimes skills learned in tricking or atleast the amount of strength gained, could greatly assist in parkour while adding flair and making yourself different and more spectacular than the others (or at least free running). Even if you are not that great at parkour, maybe your tricking skills would allow you to reach places that maybe even the best parkour athlete could not, or faster.

I guess an example that most people here would understand would be, how good were you when you only knew one language? After learning other programming languages, your knowledge of programming even in your original language would also improve by quite a lot.

I can apply this experience to drawing, sports, music, dancing, games, programming, learning languages, everything. There wasn't a single instance where trying something in a related field hasn't helped me greatly.

Have to remember that, although its nice when games are realistic, realism is not always fun.

Even if the system is not realistic, as long as it works in the world/environment that it is being played in, will make it fit in a whole lot better and still be fun.

My example uses a real world sense of the process in learning weapons. When you go to someone who teaches a certain style, the chances are that right when you pick up on one thing, they aren't going to let you move right along to the next. There's fine tuning and tweaking that comes into play to fix all the very small details. Then there is the business end of things - they want to make money from all their work, and tend to try and keep people paying as much and as long as possible. This isn't to say I could not have done it in a shorter time frame, but I know I could not have done it by myself without instruction.

So, moving on to tie a real world feel into a game...

I find/buy super-rusty-magic-sword. I use it for years. I become better over time trying to fine tune everything myself. I find/buy super-magic-big-sword. I am now 60 years old before I can use it just as well as super-rusty-magic-sword...

--or--

I find/buy super-rusty-magic-sword. I pay grand master bob to show me how to use it. I become better in a shorter amount of time. Then I learn super-big-magic-sword from grand mater bob after assisting him with his house payment, or finding rare orbs to cure his wife's rash...

Personally I like having a weapons progression system that works like the above. Having "weapons masters" to teach advanced skills would be more realistic than just going out and slaying goblins for a grip of experience with a certain weapon type. And while I do agree that with good dexterity, moving from one weapon type to another shouldn't be as difficult, but I would really benefit from going to the weapons master to raise skills much faster.

Perhaps adding levels/skill points to weapons would help though. Bear with me on this explanation ... If I have proficiency in bladed weapons, I can go train with grand master bob for more proficiency points instead of having to earn them over a period of time. No matter which bladed weapon I use I get the same attack bonus. However, if I use just a regular short sword for a period of time, I should get better with it as well as all other short swords and my short sword skills should raise. If I move to long sword, my bladed weapon proficiency points apply for it as well, but have to work up my long sword skills. Once I have done that all long swords I use get the appropriate modifiers when I use them.

That's my view...sorry if it is confusing...and long.

The thing is there is a lot of people who are self taught and are better than those who are taught.

I would consider this more of an RPG element than a realism element, whether you think this makes the game better is up to personal preference, not because its more realistic or not IMHO.

We have to remember tho, that we are mostly talking about RPG - role playing games. Realistic systems are not considered fun mostly, but the more realistic system will be, the easier will be to most players to get familiar with that system and it will be easier to actually "role play" game.

I dont like also "level requirements" for items, skills or even zones and quests, lore-, soulbound-, untradable- items and other things that trying to make game "balanced" but at the same are limiting what i can do. And also, why i shoud be good in use swords when i never used one? Its just wierd
Manually raised skills that dont relate to what i actually did in the past is considered wierd also by me. Like i always use sword for killing mobs but i can raise my wisdom because i gained level (?) hehe Or i can raise my strength but whole life i was reading books

What i would use in my game is not realistic also, but because it is only game i think it is enough:
- practical skill for using short sword - you gain exp by using it
- theoretical skill for using short sword - you gain exp by learning about it from master or by watching how other are using it.
now if you have good theory, you can get better results using sword, but still you need to practice it
if you dont know how to use sword, you can use intelligence stat to figure out how to use it good
if you have good practice, you hit more often, while you have more theory, you crit more often.

- practical and theory about combat - by learning this you incrase your general combat knowledge so even if you didnt used mace you still can hurt someone with it.

Even strength, agility etc will be incrased only by using skills that use them.

Im thinking even of such thing like trainig specific aspect of skill: shorten reuse time, longer duration, lower mana/stamina cost, incrase power

And now so you know how stong is person who you met, i could add "certificates" like you are going to clerics gouild, signing in, taking specialised training, you get skills specific to that guild and then you get rank in that guild and kind of certificate or simply (sub)class like "advanced cleric". So you can choose to display it over your head.
It is almost the same like usual class/level system but im not going to limit players to single class or class at all if they dont fill, they need it. Like in real life, you can go to scool and have some training or you can change scool or you are just a beggar on the street or something like that

Some will tell me for sure, that it will be hard to balance, but think how different characters can be made, how many things to choose. Even if you want to start the same character over again. And well, it should be like that because i am going to implement perma death also, so when you die you are well ... dead

how about...

you dont gain levels, but experience in various masteries depending on behaviour

have your character level in endurance (from walking alot)
have your character train dexterity by having some mini game that requires the players dexterity
have your character gain strength from any actions that require strength,
have your characters level in wisom from learning theoretically
have your characters faith increase by doing something in a temple

etc

and for "certificates"

I would allow the players to gain titles from masters.
By doing some trial. for example, you can be a good sword fighter,
but to gain a healers title, your taask is to heal a party in a mission.

something like that,

hmmm just have X stats and depend every action ingame on them.

That is still leveling, it just means you have grind more specific things to level. For example in Runescape, in order to raise your mining level you had to click on rocks for days on end, this could be alleviated with an auto-mining program (illegal). And yeah pretty the 6 things you listed is pretty much how Runescape works.

Proficiency, stats, etc. If you have to do something repetitively in order to raise it, if it becomes an absolute requirement for certain things, then it is exactly the same as leveling, it just has a different name. I always love how people go instead of levels, lets have e.g. a fighting stat, which levels up when you train it. ITS STILL LEVELING FFS!!!

The problem is, and I've probably said this 100 times by now, is that people are thinking (and still thinking) of everything in terms of leveling. Its like a game can't be a game without leveling. As long as you don't think about leveling in your game, you can come up with vastly different (and IMO better) ideas.

None of the MMO concepts I've sketched out involve levels.

It's a dead dynamic that belongs to the past. It's poor design.

I wouldn't go THAT far. I personally have nothing against levels, and actually quite enjoy them in many cases. I just hate when there is too much emphasis on it. I prefer it to be some kind of indication of your character's total progression, not the deciding factor of how strong your character is. In other words, "you have 50678 exp, so we'll call you 'level 10'," not "you are level 10, so your stats will be whatever your class gets at level 10 and you can now suddenly use these weapons for some reason."

Thats why I tried to come up with "Levels that make more sense"

One could also make it skillbased only.

If a player keeps a hitrate of 80% with a sword for a long time (against mobs of his level)
he is considered a better player, thus gains a title "master swordsman" or whatever,
and he can maybe get a skill from a quest with which he gains his title.

so basically you train your gaming skills,
and "prove it" to your master when he sees you as worthy (specific hitrate, dodge rate etc)

its more like an action game though.

@bake: yes it is still leveling but in case of runescape there is problem with bad design imo, not the leveling itself. Mining level should not limit you from gathering specific resource, it could only impact speed and quality. Then you wouldnt have to raise your level in order to mine silver for example. So there would not be need for external programs. Mining fields would need to be bought and/or mining minerals should have been found first and not lying next to the road

I agree with that its not different at all if you have class that have certain spells and skills and by killing mobs gain level and is able to use next versions of old spells and new ones, or to raise skill that strengthen frequently used skill. Its almost the same but one should decide which of this systems is more natural. Because what else you can use between this both or mix of them? I think there is nothing, or you just simply make a fps game where is no leveling at all and all characters starts at lvl 50. In real life you have to train your skills. If you have to be good at something you should get some training. so i stand by my decision to make realistic but simplified system for my game. Especially that im not going to prevent player from doing anything only because it has not enough skills. Want to cast fireball as a tank? ok but dont expect it to kill something, more be aware to not burn yourself or your house. Want to use great sword as a mage? Sure but dont expect to swing it as fast as warrior. If you dont drop it on your feet first, that is

Some games allow players to tune their character by gear instead of skills, but it is pointless also: in vanguard you can have tank with cloth gear and max wis stats but because you want to have best defence possible you wont choose this. And in aion you dont have choice to put on you max wis items for warriror because they dont exist in game so you cant even gimp your character because they dont give you such items at all.
I dont have idea what will be next level of simplicity for skills in next level mmos and i dont want to know

I can give you one more example why im for self raising used skills, even that i know that some people dont care about them and this system is more complicated and requires sometimes few pages of skills to track. I was playing metin 2 for a while and there when you level up, you could raise one of four stats. Dont remember exactly what was there but the problem for me was: which one to choose to not gimp my character. There was no hint what skill gives what, and even if it will be there, then still i wouldnt know how exactly benefts i would have in numbers, because even that i was playing alot of rpg games, then still i dont know what skills are supposed to do for this particular game and for what they were useful. So for me its not fun to have to blindly choose and be afraid to not gimp my character.